Norwich v West Ham United FC

SOI - my beef is not where we are in the table but rather that BFS is (IMO) showing blind loyalty to players that are not good enough for this league. Namely playing O'Brien at left back instead of a proper left back in McCartney and Cole instead of Maiga. Admittedly Maiga is unproven in this league but he deserves his chance. Cole has had plenty of chances hasn't he? Playing Taylor ahead of Jarvis. Also just because a player had a good 5 months with us in the Championship, if he is not putting a shift in now then he should be dropped. I am talking about RVT

In addition the WHOLE back five including the keeper worry me greatly. I know someone will throw back the "clean sheets" stat at me and of course that is great. BUT we have only played one HALF decent side in Swansea and our back five was a shambles. Villa, Fulham and Norwich did not have the players to test us did they? IMO Jussi, Demel, Reid, O'Brien (and maybe Ginge too) will ALL get found out when we play the better teams

I REALLY hope I am wrong!

SemiOldIron wrote: Just skimmed through this thread and find myself somewhat bewildered by the level of criticism. Just what are people expecting? We are a newly-promoted club with a decidedly average squad. Our manager's speciality is making hard-to-beat teams from fairly low-grade raw material, nothing more. Given that, there will be no easy wins for us in this league, and any point away from home is a real positive.
Four games, seven points and three clean sheets? From where I'm standing that looks like as good as it gets for some considerable time.I believe that BFS will keep us up with a decent margin of safety, but it won't be pretty and it won't be too much fun, and rubbishing the players won't improve things.

just what I was thinking S.O.I. If we can win most our home games, get as many away points as possible then thats all i'd hope for this season.

I also Think the monkey is doing norwich a huge desservice, they are by no means a bad team that gave tottenham a good gae the week before at were backed by their own crowd...a good point gained!

Tony P wrote:SOI - my beef is not where we are in the table but rather that BFS is (IMO) showing blind loyalty to players that are not good enough for this league. Namely playing O'Brien at left back instead of a proper left back in McCartney and Cole instead of Maiga. Admittedly Maiga is unproven in this league but he deserves his chance. Cole has had plenty of chances hasn't he? Playing Taylor ahead of Jarvis. Also just because a player had a good 5 months with us in the Championship, if he is not putting a shift in now then he should be dropped. I am talking about RVT

In addition the WHOLE back five including the keeper worry me greatly. I know someone will throw back the "clean sheets" stat at me and of course that is great. BUT we have only played one HALF decent side in Swansea and our back five was a shambles. Villa, Fulham and Norwich did not have the players to test us did they? IMO Jussi, Demel, Reid, O'Brien (and maybe Ginge too) will ALL get found out when we play the better teams

I REALLY hope I am wrong!

I'm wondering if BFS started with Cole as we were away from home and will take the risk with Maiga when we are the home team so its that bit less risky and with a few less longer balls played up the pitch?

I also think your right about our defence but its all we got for now and confidence in football is important...the 3 clean sheets would have given the players thta confidence so we should keep the unit togethe runtil such times a decent team tears us apart.

Just to reply to points from Mr P and WHM.The main point of my post was to say that we should enjoy the position we're in while we can, because it's most unlikely to last. I too have massive misgivings about the quality of much of our squad, but I don't want to see West Ham players being booed at UP again and it looks to me like the knives are out for some already after four games.
By all means we can criticise BFS for selecting players that haven't performed, but we only see half the picture. Maiga for Cole looks an obvious step, but we don't know what Maiga's attitude is in training, we don't know if he's fully match fit, and (something we often forget with foreign players) we don't know if BFS can actually communicate to the guy exactly what's expected of him yet. The Allardyce way is not to put players on the pitch and hope that their individual skill/brilliance wins the game for us - he has tactics, plans, strategies to get mediocre sides to punch above their weight, and players have to understand them and play to the plan.
If BFS selects Cole again after a poor game (which he quite possibly will), it's not because he doesn't see poor form, or has "favourites" or blind faith, it will be because the bloke will do what he's told to do and it's the least worst option. Cole is the most obvious example, but it applies to others too. While we can criticise the selection - that's what forums are for - I don't see that it helps the club any to lay into individual players particularly at the matches.

SOI. Don't over react mate. Who mentioned "laying into players" or "booing" during games? I would never condone that and sincerely hope it doesn't happen

I saw Maiga against Crewe. Now you can run down the opposition but I saw a player who worked his socks off, kept possession, was good in the air, showed good pace and an eye for goal. He needs a start in Carroll's absence to see if he is up for it. Otherwise Sam will never know. Cole has had enough chances to show that he is good enough at PL level and frankly has failed at every club he has been at. He is a good squad player and I am not advocating getting rid of him at all. He loves the club and is genuine enough but there is no room for sentiment in the PL. Allardyce should know that more than anyone

I think we all realised last season that Demel and O'Brien are simply not Premier League full backs. We should have made those positions a priority in the summer but didn't (for whatever reason). We will come up against genuine pace down the flanks in this league and I have no faith in either of them TBH. To compound matters O'Brien is so one-footed it is embarrassing. McCartney is a proven Premiership left back and should be playing there ahead of him

Regarding RVT he just seems disinterested to me. Not sure why. When he gets the ball he walks with it. Literally. He has shown no desire to get at his full back, and his final ball has been shocking. We spent £10.75m on Matt Jarvis and yet BFS plays Taylor and RVT ahead of him. I hope his loyalty does not cloud his judgement and that he is just biding his time before he unleashes Jarvis and Yossi. Maybe he wants a different set up for home and away games. That is a possible reason

Southampton are bottom with no points but have played Man City, Man Utd and Arsenal. I am sure that they will be mightily disappointed to have lost at home to Wigan. My point is where do you think we would be if we had had the same 4 opponents that they have had?

Anyway, I am delighted that we have 7 points on the board at this stage of the season. A hell of a lot better than our last season in the PL. However, I am a pessimist and a realist and I realise that we have not played anywhere near a top side yet. Swansea made us look very ordinary and they are not even a top 10 side IMO.

Tony P wrote:SOI. Don't over react mate. Who mentioned "laying into players" or "booing" during games? I would never condone that and sincerely hope it doesn't happen

Sorry Tony, wasn't meant personally, it's just that the forums can create an atmosphere that ends up showing itself - ugly - at home games. That said, everyone's entitled to opinions and this is the place to air them. I really hope Maiga plays against Sunderland and turns on the form you saw against Crewe, we are in dire need of it.

SemiOldIron wrote:

Tony P wrote:SOI. Don't over react mate. Who mentioned "laying into players" or "booing" during games? I would never condone that and sincerely hope it doesn't happen

Sorry Tony, wasn't meant personally, it's just that the forums can create an atmosphere that ends up showing itself - ugly - at home games. That said, everyone's entitled to opinions and this is the place to air them. I really hope Maiga plays against Sunderland and turns on the form you saw against Crewe, we are in dire need of it.

I didn't take it personally mate ! I think Sam may be forced into playing Maiga against Sunderland as I think Cole came off injured. I would like to see us attack teams at home. I would like to see Jussi, Demel, Collins, Reid, McCartney, Diame, Diarra, Nolan, Jarvis, Yossi and Maiga start. Keep Diame and Diarra to shield our suspect back five and attack with the other 5 players !!

I thought Vaz Te and Taylor had a poor game and should have been replaced with Jarvis & Yossy. Had Cole receied the same service as carol got againist Flum we would have won.

Suzanne Claret wrote:I thought Vaz Te and Taylor had a poor game and should have been replaced with Jarvis & Yossy. Had Cole receied the same service as carol got againist Flum we would have won.

Totally agree about Taylor and Vaz Te skinny burd but it doesn't matter what service Cole gets he is not good enough. Too immobile, not good enough in the air and rarely controls the ball properly - oh and will not get into double figures this season. Apart from that he is really good ! Having said that I agree that our midfield players did not get in and around CC when the ball was played up to him on Saturday which left him isolated. Sadly I think it is because they have no faith that he will a) win it in the air or b) keep possession long enough for them to get up and support him; whereas they DID when Andy Carroll was playing. The fear would be that if they bust a gut to get in and around him and we lose possession we could get caught on the counter attack

Sad but probably true

Tony P wrote: Keep Diame and Diarra to shield our suspect back five and attack with the other 5 players !!

Erm, I think we really would have a bloody good chance if we did that, but the rules say we can only have eleven in the team.....

SemiOldIron wrote:

Tony P wrote: Keep Diame and Diarra to shield our suspect back five and attack with the other 5 players !!

Erm, I think we really would have a bloody good chance if we did that, but the rules say we can only have eleven in the team.....

Do you think anyone would notice?!

I didn't see any of the game nor any of the highlights, however.......................


............I agree with everything Tony P said.

Blakey wrote:I didn't see any of the game nor any of the highlights, however.......................


............I agree with everything Tony P said.

It's no good, Blakey, they definitely will notice if we put out twelve blokes....

OK let's just attack with Jarvis, Yossi, Nolan and Maiga then !

Tony P wrote:OK let's just attack with Jarvis, Yossi, Nolan and Maiga then !

We can but dream, Mr. P!

Not sure where the four-man attack strategy might come in the Allardyce "method" though. Maybe under "Outside possibility if we are 4-0 up and the opposition have had two blokes sent off"?

I think we will see a different set up this week at home to Sunderland and hopefully all your dreams will come true Tone

SemiOldIron wrote:

Tony P wrote:OK let's just attack with Jarvis, Yossi, Nolan and Maiga then !

We can but dream, Mr. P!

Not sure where the four-man attack strategy might come in the Allardyce "method" though. Maybe under "Outside possibility if we are 4-0 up and the opposition have had two blokes sent off"?

It is a 4-2-3-1 formation which should become 4-5-1 when we don't have the ball. That is the theory anyhow !

Suzanne Claret wrote:I thought Vaz Te and Taylor had a poor game and should have been replaced with Jarvis & Yossy. Had Cole receied the same service as carol got againist Flum we would have won.

I'd have to disagree with you totally there... and that's my big problem with Cole.

When Carroll got the ball he distributed it to one of our other players.

When Cole gets the ball... it goes ANYWHERE... to one of our players is usually the LAST place he ever plays a ball. THat's what I dislike about him the most... he leaps for a ball... heads it... way out into no man's land where there ain't a West Ham player to be seen.

At least Carroll seems to realize what color shirts we play in and who his team mates are and where they actually are.

It's the Greenwood way... 'pictures in your head' - knowing exactly where the rest of your team is so that you know exactly where to run, where to play the ball, etc.

I've never seen Cole do that EVER. Even when he scores, it's usually just a quick turn and shoot, rarely requiring the involvement of a team mate.

That was what annoyed me the most about Cole's performance on saturday... having seen how Carroll took his place and made such a difference and contribution to the team just left me gobsmacked that cole could put in such a woeful, lacklustre performance.

And just to come back to SOI... I get what you're saying about communication between player and manager... but does anyone honestly think Big Sam's instructions are "run around a bit... not too much mind. Jump at the ball, just head it anywhere... doesn't matter where... hopefully the oppo will get tired out running to the corners trying to retreive it"

westhamonkey wrote:

Suzanne Claret wrote:I thought Vaz Te and Taylor had a poor game and should have been replaced with Jarvis & Yossy. Had Cole receied the same service as carol got againist Flum we would have won.

I'd have to disagree with you totally there... and that's my big problem with Cole.

When Carroll got the ball he distributed it to one of our other players.

When Cole gets the ball... it goes ANYWHERE... to one of our players is usually the LAST place he ever plays a ball. THat's what I dislike about him the most... he leaps for a ball... heads it... way out into no man's land where there ain't a West Ham player to be seen.

At least Carroll seems to realize what color shirts we play in and who his team mates are and where they actually are.

It's the Greenwood way... 'pictures in your head' - knowing exactly where the rest of your team is so that you know exactly where to run, where to play the ball, etc.

I've never seen Cole do that EVER. Even when he scores, it's usually just a quick turn and shoot, rarely requiring the involvement of a team mate.

That was what annoyed me the most about Cole's performance on saturday... having seen how Carroll took his place and made such a difference and contribution to the team just left me gobsmacked that cole could put in such a woeful, lacklustre performance.

And just to come back to SOI... I get what you're saying about communication between player and manager... but does anyone honestly think Big Sam's instructions are "run around a bit... not too much mind. Jump at the ball, just head it anywhere... doesn't matter where... hopefully the oppo will get tired out running to the corners trying to retreive it"

Dont know why but I find them two comments quite funny

Arran H wrote:

Dont know why but I find them two comments quite funny

it's because I'm a comedy genius...

westhamonkey wrote:
does anyone honestly think Big Sam's instructions are "run around a bit... not too much mind. Jump at the ball, just head it anywhere... doesn't matter where... hopefully the oppo will get tired out running to the corners trying to retreive it"

But you missed a bit after just head it anywhere - "and raise your eyebrows to the sky, then wave your arms about and stamp your feet just enough not to get booked"

Im still pissed off with Coles performance 3 days later.

Big player comes in, immediate impact, gets injured, step up to the plate Carlton......did he step up ? did he fcuk?

Carlton is a big bloke who in the past has left defenders for dead with his pace.

Does he use his height to his advantage ? no, he usually doesnt even jump

Does he use his size to out muscle defenders ? sometimes but not in positions we want him to

Does he use that pace to chase down defenders and force them into errors ? no

Will he score if he plays at the weekend ? probably....a shot that he kicks from one foot to the other and rebounds in off his arse

and all will be forgotten until the next match he appears in

I agree with Su about Coley not getting the service. What's the bloke supposed to do? If the ball doesn't get within ten yards of him, how can people blame him? He had one chance and it was cleared off the line - the closest we got. Having said that, I do think Maiga deserved to start in Carlton's place after his display against Crewe.

I was personally pleased that Taylor and Vaz Te started. We won our last game 3-0, Taylor scored and set up one, while Vaz Te created the other. Same at the back - O'Brien was solid against Fulham, a clean sheet was kept, he deserved to keep his place. End result from Saturday? Another clean sheet and an O'Brien run creating one of our better chances in the game. What message does it send out to players if they are immediately dropped after influencing a result like Fulham and, in O'Brien's case, Norwich too? We'd have a squad of very unhappy players if we restored the 'starting XI' automatically after every game. Jarvis and Benayoun were excellent options to come off the bench and influence the game. Incidentally, I would replace Taylor with Jarvis for Saturday against Sunderland and also replace Cole with Maiga. I would keep Yossi on the bench for now and continue with Vaz Te. I also don't see the need to mess about with a back five that is keeping clean sheets. O'Brien may be a better option to play against Adam Johnson too as he always cuts onto his left foot, allowing O'Brien to tackle with his right.

I can't agree with the assessments that we should be beating Norwich. We have just been promoted and such arrogance and expectation does not help anything. I thought the game was there to be won from my vantage point on Saturday had we had a better final ball on (many) occasions, particularly second half. But a point away from home is not to be sniffed at and keeps us, after Monday's game, 8th in the league. If you'd have offered me 8th in the Premier League a year ago, with three clean sheets out of four and a 100% home record, I'd have bitten your hand off, and probably most of your forearm too. Perspective people..!

Dan C wrote:

I can't agree with the assessments that we should be beating Norwich. We have just been promoted and such arrogance and expectation does not help anything. I thought the game was there to be won from my vantage point on Saturday had we had a better final ball on (many) occasions, particularly second half. But a point away from home is not to be sniffed at and keeps us, after Monday's game, 8th in the league. If you'd have offered me 8th in the Premier League a year ago, with three clean sheets out of four and a 100% home record, I'd have bitten your hand off, and probably most of your forearm too. Perspective people..!

Amen to that! Well said Dan.

i am so pissed off with the way people slag carlton off, he never got the ball on saturday the service to him was dreadful, vaz te and taylor who both had blinders against flum and were a constant threat had absolute mares the pair of em on saturday, i lost count of the times vaz te ran clear with the ball got to the by line and just put the ball in the stands, he couldn't cross a finguck road, no one seems to moan about mr miagi doing nothing because he never got any service, oh wait that might be because he got more than cole because cole went off and the service from jarvis and in the last 5 minutes yossi came on, a striker is only as good as his service and cole got fcuk all service against the inbreds.