Moyes: Useless or fupping Useless?

22 games in... W6, D7, L9

his worst win percentage other than Sunderland

33 goals conceded
26 goals scored

performances are getting worse... Antonio comes back from injury... scores with his first touch of the game, so Moyes drops him to the bench for today's game... but then when he brings him on... he scores.
yes, our entire defense is shit... but Ginge doesn't even get a place on the bench today?
we were totally outclassed, outplayed and outfought by Swansea today from the opening whistle... but we didn't even use all three subs...
you can't make a silk purse out of sow's ear... but look at who we are playing... a shitty Swansea team that under their new manager (who took over when they wee in the relegation zone) hasn't lost in 7 at home and put them higher in the table than us today...
but where the fupp are we under Moyes?

now everyone knows I've never been a fan of Moyes... probably never will at this rate... but am I being too harsh on him?


just for shits and giggles... lets look at Slaven's final 22 games for us... maybe not the worst comparison because a: his record got him sacked... and we were as shit at the end of last season as we are at the beginning of this one...

W5, D3, L6 (this season)
W3, D3, L2 (last season)

W8, D6, L8

So the facts spell out that Moyes record is even worse than Slaven's.

He's got 9 games to turn it around and save us from relegation and I think we're actually very lucky that there are some teams even more shit than we are (although we now are top of the table for conceding goals)

but regardless of what happens - I think we need a different manager.

westhamonkey wrote:
22 games in... W6, D7, L9

his worst win percentage other than Sunderland

33 goals conceded
26 goals scored

performances are getting worse... Antonio comes back from injury... scores with his first touch of the game, so Moyes drops him to the bench for today's game... but then when he brings him on... he scores.
yes, our entire defense is shit... but Ginge doesn't even get a place on the bench today?
we were totally outclassed, outplayed and outfought by Swansea today from the opening whistle... but we didn't even use all three subs...
you can't make a silk purse out of sow's ear... but look at who we are playing... a shitty Swansea team that under their new manager (who took over when they wee in the relegation zone) hasn't lost in 7 at home and put them higher in the table than us today...
but where the fupp are we under Moyes?

now everyone knows I've never been a fan of Moyes... probably never will at this rate... but am I being too harsh on him?


just for shits and giggles... lets look at Slaven's final 22 games for us... maybe not the worst comparison because a: his record got him sacked... and we were as shit at the end of last season as we are at the beginning of this one...

W5, D3, L6 (this season)
W3, D3, L2 (last season)

W8, D6, L8

So the facts spell out that Moyes record is even worse than Slaven's.

He's got 9 games to turn it around and save us from relegation and I think we're actually very lucky that there are some teams even more shit than we are (although we now are top of the table for conceding goals)

but regardless of what happens - I think we need a different manager.

I don't think a new manager is going to help us now. Our only hope is that we can scrape some points together or that we are lucky enough that there are 3 teams worse than us come the end of the season.

IMO we would be in a worse position if we had stuck with Bilic, as Dicksy said a couple of weeks ago Bilic was too soft on the players and some of them were taking the piss.

I agree with every word Kray dude... and at the same time I can see Hughes turning Southampton around under the same circumstances that no manager can turn us around...

as is always the case with us...



and I'm not saying it was the wrong move to ditch Bilic, I agree he had to go and Dicksy - gawd luv 'im - was always crap as a manager... much like psycho, as much as I love him too....

I just think Moyes was the complete wrong choice

Our owners have finally been rumbled, so any manager that would come to us will be useless imo. I mean who with
an ounce of sense would put their careers on the line by working with the shower of shit board that we have? 

Christ, even some of the most die hard supporters are giving up, so what chance do we have of getting anyone half decent? Nope, it'll be some div with a final payday in mind, or probably Moyes himself, who fits that bill to a T.

We need a new board before anything good happens to West Ham 

 what gorgeous said sadly 

Jiggs wrote:Our owners have finally been rumbled, so any manager that would come to us will be useless imo. I mean who with
an ounce of sense would put their careers on the line by working with the shower of shit board that we have? 

Christ, even some of the most die hard supporters are giving up, so what chance do we have of getting anyone half decent? Nope, it'll be some div with a final payday in mind, or probably Moyes himself, who fits that bill to a T.

We need a new board before anything good happens to West Ham 

okay, I'll bite...

I'll bite because I'm genuinely invested and genuinely curious to find out...

I know a lot of people are drinking the 'board out' kool-aid (it's an American thing)

but can you actually explain something to me...

what are you all talking about?????

And Jiggs, I'm not singling you out when I use the word 'you' - by that I mean all the people who are saying these things and as you're one of the only people who still comes here and bothers to post... I'll get nothing but swears asking stuff like this on Facebook... but I really would like to know... and you do say things that make no sense like "our owners have finally been rumbled" - so tell me...

here's the thing...

I hate Sullivan and his family with a vengeance... wish they were nothing to do with West Ham... Gold, I don't actually mind... Brady... I have no thoughts or opinion on one way or another...

But what have they actually done that makes them 'criminals' or have 'broken promises'????

If you thought David Sullivan saying we'd be playing European football in 5 years was a cast iron guarantee of anything other than his stupidity... then I have a bridge in London I'd like to talk about selling you... because that just makes you as stupid and gullible and naive as he is.

Let's say you wake up on a monday morning and say to yourself 'this is gonna be a great day and a great week' and then the bus runs late so you miss the train to work and get bitched at by your boss for being late... you then find you lost your wallet and so can't buy lunch... then on wednesday your gran dies and when you go to buy flowers for her funeral you find your stolen wallet had all your cards in and they've been used by some chancer who's stolen all the money out of your bank, leaving you penniless and somewhat annoyed.... (an extreme example... but nevertheless...)
Does that then make you a 'liar' for having said - because you wanted it to be so - that this week was going to be great?
does it mean that you should be slated for 'broken promises'??????
you see where I'm coming from?
I'm sure no one would be happier than any board member if we were riding high at the top of the Premier League and competing in europe... but shit happens... sometimes we make poor choices, sometimes life just gets in the way.
But I for one never thought we'd be competing in europe in 5 years... nor did it ever cross my mind that those words were a binding guarantee of success... I'm not that gullible.

If you keep asking 'where's the money gone' --- then what do you understand about running a business or actually have any insight or understanding of what happens at West Ham? I know I don't.

but look at what happened... the Icelanders came in (more about them in a minute) and we were inches away from going out of business... not being a 'bit poor' or 'financially embarrassed this week' - but ceasing to exist.
Whether you love 'em or hate 'em... the Board came in and bailed us out... kept us in business with money out of their own pockets... no one else did... and they weren't exactly fighting off rival bidders...

So they have a lot that the club should thank them for... and if you invest in something... shouldn't you see a return on your investment... or at least a return of the money you put in... even if you don't make anything above that?

Can someone please show me... clearly and honestly... where these people have trousered millions in cash from the club?
And i'm not asking for a repeat of drunken pub talk... if this has happened... prove it... shouldn't be too hard to find... should it?

Yes, I hated selling the Boleyn ground, yes, I think moving into rented accommodation was a poor business move - the whole escapade could, should have been handled differently... but a combination of factors (outside of the club's control) derailed the original deal to buy the O.S. (would people have been complaining about stolen money if the owners had stumped up several hundred million to buy it????) and left us with a shitty rental deal (which I wish we'd not taken... but they did, and it still seems to me to be more of a desperate and unrealistic grab for glory rather than a grab for cash)

And then the complaint about not investing in the team...
Arnaoutvic - 24 million
Chicharito - 16 million
Ayew - 20 million
Payet - 10 millon
Carroll -- 17 million (waste of fupping money)

I've supported WHUFC since I was born... when have we ever spent those kinds of sums on players?
I'm not talking about the balance of ins and outs... I'm talking about WHUFC as a spending force in football.

Yes, I remember us making Phil Parkes the most expensive goalkeeper... but that was what... a million quid or so and a million years ago... and completely out of character for our club.

In the 2009/10 season... we drafted in 12 players for a combined fee of 2 million!!!!!

We've never been a big spender no matter who has been in charge... laying out more than 5m on a player is the exception for us... not the rule...

And then who's going to want to come play for us anyway? Let's be honest... we're an average to shit team on the downward spiral who at best have been a yo-yo club for the past 20 years... what are we supposed to do? Be surprised that we're not signing Messi or Ronaldo? Or that Bale went to Spain rather than a trip across London?

Yes, I do fault the board for not having a realistic long term strategy.
Yes, I do fault the board for making poor choices for manager - Bilic, Moyes... those are desperation choices, not made out of a positive belief in long term success
Yes, I do think Sullivan is a minge
Yes, I do think moving to a rented O.S. with an under performing and unsuccessful team was a huge mistake

But let's face it... all the cries of 'we want someone rich to come save us'

1. They already did. The Icelanders tried it. We almost died as a club.

2. Oh yeah, they already did... the current board (I know, I know... I hate Sullivan too... why can't Gold be the major shareholder and kick him out... eh?)

3. Who the fupp is going to want to buy us? We're a shit team, we have no viable asset value, a piss poor global name because of a bunch of shitty fans and a really piss poor team... seriously... who in their right mind is looking at us and thinking... "hmmm... that 100-300 million pounds sterling that's burning a hole in my pocket could be worth so much more if I just invested in West Ham United Football Club?


I've lived through the 'board out' protests for the Cearns and the Browns... I lived through the Icelandic heroes who were going to propel us to the next level and nearly succeeded in destroying the club (not necessarily through their fault).... so I've been here before...
I've seen us win Cups, destroy bigger teams, seen us embarrassed and humiliated by more lower league teams than I ever thought possible... i've watched the 'fans' fight in the streets, turning us into a local and national embarrassment - so I'll get past all of this... I always do...

But...

I don't get where the 'criminal' tag or the 'bleeding our club dry' have any basis in fact...

and even the 'broken promises' claim says more about the stupidity and gullibility of parts of our fanbase than it does about the board...

I just want someone to explain to me (hopefully in simple words I can understand) where that comes from and whether there is any factual justification to it...

I'm presuming this is accurate... because it's all a matter of record...

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go on... read back to like 1983/84... just tell me that our current spending on players isn't leaps and bounds ahead of where it used to be... there's years on here where we brought in no one... NONE!

36 minutes long, but explains a lot. It shows just how much was taken away
and how little has been given back.




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My view …….

I don’t think many, if at all any, West Ham supporters believed we'd be playing European football in 5 years. As you say nothing is a cast iron guarantee. Barring the minority that took matters into their own hands against Burnley and those that want the board out, West Ham fans are far from being stupid and gullible. But Sullivan was treating the whole fan base as so, right there at the start. Big fupp off mistake that I hope they have just started to live to regret. 

My understanding of running a football club is obviously none. They have failed on the promise of a “World class stadium”  When the company fitting the retractable seating went bust, they went for the cheaper option of removable seating at a cost of around 8 million to dismantle and replace, down to the tax payer so more money saved. The gaps it leaves around the ground in “football mode” are awful, but you can’t see it on a TV or computer screen. (you'll have seen for yourself in the video above)

No proper segregation, as the place is an athletics arena, allowing you access all around.  The stewarding problem, known from way back in 2016 against Chelsea, ignored when it was just mere supporters at risk, but is being tackled head on since the board were exposed against Burnley the other week. There is now to be segregation in the concourse from tomorrow, 31st March.
 
Being only tenants, things have been rebuffed by the landlords and so the stadium still lacks the “look and feel of a West Ham home”, Brady’s words. The board thought they would get their own way as per.  When that backfired early days, they should have walked. Gold now saying they were miss-led by the architects, *sigh and yawn*
 
We were promised like for like seats that were never possible from the start, giving precedence to guests of season ticket holders left little or no options to those in the lower bands - Yep, those that tend to stand all game. The problems this would cause ignored, priority being to sell, sell and sell!  We were 11^th row in the corner near the Bobby end and have ended up in row 64 nearer to the Trevor Brooking stand.
 
 The “World class team” promised is actually getting worse after each window, with ridiculous claims by the board that they tried to sign this one and that one, at a reduced price, but due to someone else’s fault it couldn’t be finalised in time. In the case of Carvalho, Sporting Lisbon denied any approach from our board and threatened legal action if Sullivan continued the lie.  Apart from Payet and Arnie they signed no one, unless they were useless, aged 33 and over, or on loan. They made a profit selling Payet, Ayew, Sakho, Fonte and Tomkins because they didn’t actually replace them. 


To compare today’s transfer figures to those of 20 – 30 years ago is ridiculous. For a start inflation and secondly clubs didn’t have huge Sky handouts to use. Average shit team? – yes. Yo-Yo club?  We’ve been relegated twice since 1994. 2003 under Brown, then in 2012 under the Dildo twins. Worse still Fonte and Snodgrass, whilst out on loan, are slagged off publicly by board members. Payet and Sakho instigate their own departures …. Makes you wonder what now lies beneath. So yes, I agree that it’s almost impossible for our club to sign anyone decent.
  
The Icelandic financial crisis meant banks foreclosed and called in loans. Could many repay their whole mortgage if that happened to them? No, so it was hardly their fault. Our board could afford to and bailed us out with their own money. Oh yeah course they did. The 100 million debt is still there. No capital ever gets paid off because our “saviours” charge the club 7% interest on that money. A very profitable return for their loan the club, given that our banks and mortgage lenders have until recently been only charging 1%!  Prove where the money has gone, Lol, they’re far too clever for that. 
            
BTW, it was never the intention of the board to buy the OS; Apart from it not being an option, they made that perfectly clear from the start in their first interview when they took us over.  A desperate and unrealistic grab for glory rather than a grab for cash is incorrect. They speculated to accumulate money for themselves, not to spend it on improving the team.  It was always their priority to move us on and rent. 


It has since been revealed that we could have developed the East Stand when the bus garage was sold, but the board said it wasn’t possible because the height of it would block light from the flats behind.  The flats being erected there now will exceed the height of any developed East Stand. (A member of the Real West Ham Fans action group works in the architects’ office that held the approved plans).  The board met with local traders in and around Green Street and the Barking Road and assured all they would be able to trade at the OS. They said they would take care of the memorial garden …… all lies.[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


The Real West Ham Fans action group initially went and cleared the memorial garden; they (not the board) continued to sort the problem. Latest update was posted as follows:


Update on memorial gardens had a very good meeting today with becg and barratts we gave them some points and they are happy to help us. Let me just say they (barratts) are bending over backwards to get this all sorted for the families its going to take time and I will update everyone. Two things they are going to do ASAP is better lighting and also put some seating i.e. benches and for painting the railings they will get in touch with me and they said it shouldn’t be a problem

The board sold the Boleyn to Galliard Homes; at the cheapest offer of 38 million. They accepted the lower amount because this company had the heritage and history of West Ham United at heart. They were to keep the centre circle and rename areas after players amongst other things.  But Galliard Homes sold it almost immediately to Barratt Homes. It stinks of backhanders and corruption ….. Especially when you read the latest ……


“David Sullivan, the co-owner of West Ham United, has been adjudged at a tribunal to have used the football club to avoid paying £700,000 in taxes".  


The allegations being faced by Mr Sullivan are that his company acquired shares in West Ham United’s holding company partly in order to bring about a loss on its balance sheet, which would then result in its tax liabilities being reduced by some £700,000. Judge Jane Bailey “It is clear from our findings of fact that there was more than one way to provide funding to the football club and that one of the reasons that Mr Sullivan chose to provide funds to the football club in the specific way that transpired was so that the appellant (Sullivan) could claim a capital loss,” It was also said in a statement that “Congate Ltd”, Mr Sullivan’s family business, “built tax structures to avoid paying the tax that was rightfully due”.


CONGATE LTD!! That’s how arrogant the devious little prick is!
 
The Real West Ham Fans action group was set up to confront the board, with 16,000 members signed up. Funds were raised to the tune of £27,000 to organise a protest march, with any remaining monies going to little Isla’s charity fund. Isla is a two and a half year old little Hammer suffering with Neuroblastoma cancer needing expensive treatment in America. A meeting was hastily arranged by the board, who by now were running scared. Brady heard the gripes and promised to look into them. She wanted the march cancelled and said if it was; the club would reimburse costs to all the fans who had arranged to come from abroad for the march. Also they would match the money going to Isla. One of the representatives from the group is a relation of Isla’s …… March called off, using Emotional blackmail. Unforgivable, but these are the kind of people we are dealing with.
 
So lets reiterate.  We left the Boleyn after a hugely successful season, finishing 7^th, with a fantastic team ready to go places. I believe our best players were fed lies too and those that have since departed saw through them immediately.  The board have failed to put their money where their mouths are, made big profits and spent little of it West Ham wise. 


They’ve stripped our assets and made us council tenants; we do not take precedence over Athletics and are not allowed to have the “look and feel of a West Ham home”. Westfield owners don’t want us there and we are made to trudge around their shopping centre trying to dodge the stewards with stop/go lollipops.


West Ham are in a £100 million legal dispute with their London Stadium landlords over capacity and revenue. After two years at the fish bowl the board reveal that we are no better off financially than we were at the Boleyn. Unless sold to anyone with willingness to take us to the next level and actually mean it and see it through, the majority of West Ham fans don’t particularly want this board out. Providing of course they make a serious attempt to deliver what was originally proposed. No more lies!


Finally Westhamonkey, you can argue as much as you like, this is my view and I won’t be swayed. I’m not singling you out either, but you really need to have been there/lived through it, to fully understand.

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thanks for taking the time to reply... lots to digest.

Not sure what you mean about needing to "live through it to understand it" - that's what i do.

I figured the Sullivan tax dodge would be brought up - although it only came to light in the past week, so I guess not too many people factored it onto their protests.

Once we entered the OS as tenants and not owners, we are never going to get anything pro-football like decent seating, decorations, facilities, etc... so anyone harping on about that probably didn't really understand what being a tenant actually means...

With it being a tenancy situation we should have backed out immediately and let Tottenham take over - especially with the precedence of renting ground football clubs not setting a good example.

Jiggs wrote:36 minutes long, but explains a lot. It shows just how much was taken away
and how little has been given back.




[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
 
My view …….

I don’t think many, if at all any, West Ham supporters believed we'd be playing European football in 5 years. As you say nothing is a cast iron guarantee. Barring the minority that took matters into their own hands against Burnley and those that want the board out, West Ham fans are far from being stupid and gullible. But Sullivan was treating the whole fan base as so, right there at the start. Big fupp off mistake that I hope they have just started to live to regret. 

My understanding of running a football club is obviously none. They have failed on the promise of a “World class stadium”  When the company fitting the retractable seating went bust, they went for the cheaper option of removable seating at a cost of around 8 million to dismantle and replace, down to the tax payer so more money saved. The gaps it leaves around the ground in “football mode” are awful, but you can’t see it on a TV or computer screen. (you'll have seen for yourself in the video above)

No proper segregation, as the place is an athletics arena, allowing you access all around.  The stewarding problem, known from way back in 2016 against Chelsea, ignored when it was just mere supporters at risk, but is being tackled head on since the board were exposed against Burnley the other week. There is now to be segregation in the concourse from tomorrow, 31st March.
 
Being only tenants, things have been rebuffed by the landlords and so the stadium still lacks the “look and feel of a West Ham home”, Brady’s words. The board thought they would get their own way as per.  When that backfired early days, they should have walked. Gold now saying they were miss-led by the architects, *sigh and yawn*
 
We were promised like for like seats that were never possible from the start, giving precedence to guests of season ticket holders left little or no options to those in the lower bands - Yep, those that tend to stand all game. The problems this would cause ignored, priority being to sell, sell and sell!  We were 11^th row in the corner near the Bobby end and have ended up in row 64 nearer to the Trevor Brooking stand.
 
 The “World class team” promised is actually getting worse after each window, with ridiculous claims by the board that they tried to sign this one and that one, at a reduced price, but due to someone else’s fault it couldn’t be finalised in time. In the case of Carvalho, Sporting Lisbon denied any approach from our board and threatened legal action if Sullivan continued the lie.  Apart from Payet and Arnie they signed no one, unless they were useless, aged 33 and over, or on loan. They made a profit selling Payet, Ayew, Sakho, Fonte and Tomkins because they didn’t actually replace them. 


To compare today’s transfer figures to those of 20 – 30 years ago is ridiculous. For a start inflation and secondly clubs didn’t have huge Sky handouts to use. Average shit team? – yes. Yo-Yo club?  We’ve been relegated twice since 1994. 2003 under Brown, then in 2012 under the Dildo twins. Worse still Fonte and Snodgrass, whilst out on loan, are slagged off publicly by board members. Payet and Sakho instigate their own departures …. Makes you wonder what now lies beneath. So yes, I agree that it’s almost impossible for our club to sign anyone decent.
  
The Icelandic financial crisis meant banks foreclosed and called in loans. Could many repay their whole mortgage if that happened to them? No, so it was hardly their fault. Our board could afford to and bailed us out with their own money. Oh yeah course they did. The 100 million debt is still there. No capital ever gets paid off because our “saviours” charge the club 7% interest on that money. A very profitable return for their loan the club, given that our banks and mortgage lenders have until recently been only charging 1%!  Prove where the money has gone, Lol, they’re far too clever for that. 
            
BTW, it was never the intention of the board to buy the OS; Apart from it not being an option, they made that perfectly clear from the start in their first interview when they took us over.  A desperate and unrealistic grab for glory rather than a grab for cash is incorrect. They speculated to accumulate money for themselves, not to spend it on improving the team.  It was always their priority to move us on and rent. 


It has since been revealed that we could have developed the East Stand when the bus garage was sold, but the board said it wasn’t possible because the height of it would block light from the flats behind.  The flats being erected there now will exceed the height of any developed East Stand. (A member of the Real West Ham Fans action group works in the architects’ office that held the approved plans).  The board met with local traders in and around Green Street and the Barking Road and assured all they would be able to trade at the OS. They said they would take care of the memorial garden …… all lies.[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


The Real West Ham Fans action group initially went and cleared the memorial garden; they (not the board) continued to sort the problem. Latest update was posted as follows:


Update on memorial gardens had a very good meeting today with becg and barratts we gave them some points and they are happy to help us. Let me just say they (barratts) are bending over backwards to get this all sorted for the families its going to take time and I will update everyone. Two things they are going to do ASAP is better lighting and also put some seating i.e. benches and for painting the railings they will get in touch with me and they said it shouldn’t be a problem

The board sold the Boleyn to Galliard Homes; at the cheapest offer of 38 million. They accepted the lower amount because this company had the heritage and history of West Ham United at heart. They were to keep the centre circle and rename areas after players amongst other things.  But Galliard Homes sold it almost immediately to Barratt Homes. It stinks of backhanders and corruption ….. Especially when you read the latest ……


“David Sullivan, the co-owner of West Ham United, has been adjudged at a tribunal to have used the football club to avoid paying £700,000 in taxes".  


The allegations being faced by Mr Sullivan are that his company acquired shares in West Ham United’s holding company partly in order to bring about a loss on its balance sheet, which would then result in its tax liabilities being reduced by some £700,000. Judge Jane Bailey “It is clear from our findings of fact that there was more than one way to provide funding to the football club and that one of the reasons that Mr Sullivan chose to provide funds to the football club in the specific way that transpired was so that the appellant (Sullivan) could claim a capital loss,” It was also said in a statement that “Congate Ltd”, Mr Sullivan’s family business, “built tax structures to avoid paying the tax that was rightfully due”.


CONGATE LTD!! That’s how arrogant the devious little prick is!
 
The Real West Ham Fans action group was set up to confront the board, with 16,000 members signed up. Funds were raised to the tune of £27,000 to organise a protest march, with any remaining monies going to little Isla’s charity fund. Isla is a two and a half year old little Hammer suffering with Neuroblastoma cancer needing expensive treatment in America. A meeting was hastily arranged by the board, who by now were running scared. Brady heard the gripes and promised to look into them. She wanted the march cancelled and said if it was; the club would reimburse costs to all the fans who had arranged to come from abroad for the march. Also they would match the money going to Isla. One of the representatives from the group is a relation of Isla’s …… March called off, using Emotional blackmail. Unforgivable, but these are the kind of people we are dealing with.
 
So lets reiterate.  We left the Boleyn after a hugely successful season, finishing 7^th, with a fantastic team ready to go places. I believe our best players were fed lies too and those that have since departed saw through them immediately.  The board have failed to put their money where their mouths are, made big profits and spent little of it West Ham wise. 


They’ve stripped our assets and made us council tenants; we do not take precedence over Athletics and are not allowed to have the “look and feel of a West Ham home”. Westfield owners don’t want us there and we are made to trudge around their shopping centre trying to dodge the stewards with stop/go lollipops.


West Ham are in a £100 million legal dispute with their London Stadium landlords over capacity and revenue. After two years at the fish bowl the board reveal that we are no better off financially than we were at the Boleyn. Unless sold to anyone with willingness to take us to the next level and actually mean it and see it through, the majority of West Ham fans don’t particularly want this board out. Providing of course they make a serious attempt to deliver what was originally proposed. No more lies!


Finally Westhamonkey, you can argue as much as you like, this is my view and I won’t be swayed. I’m not singling you out either, but you really need to have been there/lived through it, to fully understand.

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westhamonkey wrote:
thanks for taking the time to reply... lots to digest.

Not sure what you mean about needing to "live through it to understand it" - that's what i do.

I figured the Sullivan tax dodge would be brought up - although it only came to light in the past week, so I guess not too many people factored it onto their protests.

Once we entered the OS as tenants and not owners, we are never going to get anything pro-football like decent seating, decorations, facilities, etc... so anyone harping on about that probably didn't really understand what being a tenant actually means...

With it being a tenancy situation we should have backed out immediately and let Tottenham take over - especially with the precedence of renting ground football clubs not setting a good example.

Jiggs wrote:

Finally Westhamonkey, you can argue as much as you like, this is my view and I won’t be swayed. I’m not singling you out either, but you really need to have been there/lived through it, to fully understand.

As you said, lots to digest. I meant as a season ticket holder, as it happened. Lots of emotional blackmail before we left Upton Park to actually be eligible for a season ticket at the fish bowl. Then once we'd moved in the realisation that we'd been shafted growing more and more with each reveal, week by week.

Being a tenant never really crossed anyone's mind as the board continually harped on about the world class stadium with the look and feel of a West Ham home. They had everything in hand, had agreed and signed a contract with the owners that would meet the approval of the most die hard fan.  Why would any of us think they were bullshitting over putting up a few flags and decorating the place claret and blue? They knew it wasn't going to happen, but we didn't!  

Many ST holders feel the protests are now too late and are asking themselves why we didn't protest when the move was imminent.  I remember.  They gave us the right to put forward our opinions in a poll.  Can you imagine that they asked if it was ok to sell off our assets? They did ask about changing the badge but must have ignored the responses, because a huge percentage now will tell you that they didn't want to lose the castle or have the word London added.  That's why there were no protests, we were enticed to believe that everything being done was for the good of the club, with the fans feelings first and foremost.

They sold fans seats for fifty quid and auctioned off loads of other stuff, signage etc., from around the ground ffs! They promised fans that their engraved bricks, which they bought and paid for when the Rio stand was erected, would be theirs to collect. Were they fupp!  A supporter salvaged what he could of them and listed them on facebook, so at least some made their way to their owners.  

Pfft, the deal of the century, for the fan absolutely not, for the money grabbing bastards in the board yes. The tax dodge just confirms what a shyster Sullivan is, and how the other two follow.

And..........just to top it off if you'll pardon the pun, the state of the art roof that covers the world class stadium, leaks. You couldn't make it up could ya.

yup, it all sounds like 'about right for West Ham'

I'll be honest, I never really fancied leaving Upton Park - with me gran being long gone, I've no tangible ties to the area now... but I was onboard with us moving to a big, new stadium...
I would just have pulled the plug on it as soon as it went from being a purchase to a rental.

There's no 'olympic legacy' anywhere on earth that isn't a ruined shell... anything that's turned a profit or kept in business did so because it got sold off and handed over to a commercial concern - like the O2. The 'millennium dome' would be a car park or a sunday flea market if it had been kept in public hands... and to be honest... I see the OS going the same way because we're not coughing up anything near enough to keep it solvent.

we should have walked away, let it go bankrupt with either Spurs in charge or just rotting away, then bought it for pennies on the pound and done with it what we wanted.

I feel bad for all the people who invested in bricks with their names on... but not being particularly sentimental, that kind of thing never appealed to me or seem(s)ed like a good idea... but I get that I'm hardly a good indicator on such subjects.


Our biggest problem is that we've kinda dug ourselves into a hole from which we seem to have no idea how to get out.

Sullivan is the one who's installed his family at the club and so getting him out is going to be nigh on impossible unless somehow a billionaire wakes up as an idealist like me... or an idealist like me suddenly wakes up with billions of quid... neither of which seem likely no matter how hard I wish it...

I'd keep Gold on just because I figure anyone of his age who puts up with the shit that's thrown at him with as much good humor as he does deserves at least a little something in return.

If I could think of a way to get the Sullivans to sell up I'd be all for it... but protests don't make the club look like a healthy investment opportunity and we have fupp all in the way of assets to seem appealing to anyone.

I still think in terms of the 'broken promises' that anyone foolish enough to have believed what they were being told hasn't been out in the real world very much or has lived a very sheltered and lucky life.

I just don't see where we go from here.

Success seems barely scraping by on Premier League survival and that's not going to bring in new players, new fans or new investment.
The longer we survive the worse the deal for the OS is going to be seen by the tax payer... so maybe that's our 'out' - get the public so pissed at the club/government/barry hearn, that they force the city to sell the stadium... then at least we could pick it up and tell those athletic legacy assholes to go fupp themselves....
But that's not going to be quick, cheap or painless...

I mean.. in all my born days I never thought I'd be supporting a team managed by David Moyes for fupp sake....
if I wanted humorless jocks, I'd have gone for Dalgleish back in the day, or had a modicum of respect/admiration for Ferguson (apologies to anyone from north of the border)

so it's tough to keep it going... but I'll keep on supporting us because it's that or give up football... and I'll just hope that something turns this around before I end up joining those who came before me...

It's the West Ham way, innit...

Jiggs wrote:

westhamonkey wrote:
thanks for taking the time to reply... lots to digest.

Not sure what you mean about needing to "live through it to understand it" - that's what i do.

I figured the Sullivan tax dodge would be brought up - although it only came to light in the past week, so I guess not too many people factored it onto their protests.

Once we entered the OS as tenants and not owners, we are never going to get anything pro-football like decent seating, decorations, facilities, etc... so anyone harping on about that probably didn't really understand what being a tenant actually means...

With it being a tenancy situation we should have backed out immediately and let Tottenham take over - especially with the precedence of renting ground football clubs not setting a good example.

Jiggs wrote:

Finally Westhamonkey, you can argue as much as you like, this is my view and I won’t be swayed. I’m not singling you out either, but you really need to have been there/lived through it, to fully understand.

As you said, lots to digest. I meant as a season ticket holder, as it happened. Lots of emotional blackmail before we left Upton Park to actually be eligible for a season ticket at the fish bowl. Then once we'd moved in the realisation that we'd been shafted growing more and more with each reveal, week by week.

Being a tenant never really crossed anyone's mind as the board continually harped on about the world class stadium with the look and feel of a West Ham home. They had everything in hand, had agreed and signed a contract with the owners that would meet the approval of the most die hard fan.  Why would any of us think they were bullshitting over putting up a few flags and decorating the place claret and blue? They knew it wasn't going to happen, but we didn't!  

Many ST holders feel the protests are now too late and are asking themselves why we didn't protest when the move was imminent.  I remember.  They gave us the right to put forward our opinions in a poll.  Can you imagine that they asked if it was ok to sell off our assets? They did ask about changing the badge but must have ignored the responses, because a huge percentage now will tell you that they didn't want to lose the castle or have the word London added.  That's why there were no protests, we were enticed to believe that everything being done was for the good of the club, with the fans feelings first and foremost.

They sold fans seats for fifty quid and auctioned off loads of other stuff, signage etc., from around the ground ffs! They promised fans that their engraved bricks, which they bought and paid for when the Rio stand was erected, would be theirs to collect. Were they fupp!  A supporter salvaged what he could of them and listed them on facebook, so at least some made their way to their owners.  

Pfft, the deal of the century, for the fan absolutely not, for the money grabbing bastards in the board yes. The tax dodge just confirms what a shyster Sullivan is, and how the other two follow.

And..........just to top it off if you'll pardon the pun, the state of the art roof that covers the world class stadium, leaks. You couldn't make it up could ya.

westhamonkey wrote:
I still think in terms of the 'broken promises' that anyone foolish enough to have believed what they were being told hasn't been out in the real world very much or has lived a very sheltered and lucky life.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong!!!  None of the above applies to the majority and especially not me.
We were duped by conmen, plain and simple.

you really thought moving to the OS with our bunch of perennial relegation dodgers was a recipe for European success???

you really thought we were going to start attracting the brightest and best talent world football has to offer?

sure, we'd all love those things to happen, we all want those things to happen... but seriously...

look at what we achieve... look at what we've done in just this century... what's our best finish? 7th? or something like that - and it's not like that was anything more than a statistical anomaly.

Hopes and dreams...

Jiggs wrote:

westhamonkey wrote:
I still think in terms of the 'broken promises' that anyone foolish enough to have believed what they were being told hasn't been out in the real world very much or has lived a very sheltered and lucky life.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong!!!  None of the above applies to the majority and especially not me.
We were duped by conmen, plain and simple.

I told you right from the off that I didn't think many, if at all any, West Ham supporters believed we'd be playing European football in five years, me included. You had asked for clarification as to why the fanbase were spitting chips at the owners and I spent quite a while trying to help you see all the facts and to understand what exactly the spivs and their lackey had done to line their own pockets, rather than for the good of our club.  

But you just keep insinuating that we're all stupid by referring back to us believing in European success. Believe it or not, the average die hard fan was quite happy with what we had........Finishing above the drop zone, or against the odds in the top ten. A little flirt with a European spot and the odd extended cup run.  Dreaming that one season, we'd actually make it.  It's called  The West Ham Way!

So stop trying to wind me up Monkeybrain ....